In this episode of the SDG Series of Between Two Flags, host Sophia speaks to Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares from the Canadian Coalition for Youth Peace and Security about the de-tokenization of youth in peacebuilding efforts.
Canadian Coalition for Youth Peace and Security
https://www.canadayps.org/who-we-are
UNA-Canada
Sophia Mirzayee 0:00
You're listening to the SDG series of Between Two Flags, a bilingual podcast series for the United Nations Association in Canada. UNA-Canada's mandate is to educate and engage Canadians on the work of the UN, and international issues of importance to us all.
Grant Mask 0:16
On this podcast, guests discuss a wide range of issues related to the Sustainable Development Goals and the UN's work. The 17 SDGs are a global call for action, providing a shared blueprint for peace and prosperity for people and the planet. Tag us as you listen with #betweentwoflags.
Sophia Mirzayee 0:42
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the third episode in the SDG series of between two flags. I'm your host Sophia Mirzayee and today I am joined by Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares from the Canadian Coalition for Youth peace and Security. Gabriela is a young woman from Brazil who emigrated to Canada in 2018. She is currently a student at Simon Fraser University where she studies political science and French. After attending the women deliver conference in 2019, she worked as a youth advisor to the Canadian Council of young feminists, where she helped bridge the gap between youth and decision makers. In September of 2020, she co created the Canadian Coalition for Youth Peace and Security, and is currently on the steering committee. Welcome to our podcastl Gabriela.
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 1:31
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Sophia Mirzayee 1:35
Thank you. And my first question for you, because I'm super curious about this is what exactly is the intersection or the overlap between youth peace and security.
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 1:49
So you have peace and security, they intersect in the point of positive peace. And for you to have positive peace, we need sustainable peace building, which needs young people, because if we want it to be long lasting, we need to introduce the younger generation to it. And security is needed to maintain these peace building efforts. So they all intersect in this point of having sustainable peace building towards positive peace.
Sophia Mirzayee 2:13
Okay, thank you for sort of teasing that out for us a little bit more, because, you know, some of these concepts are very broad. And so sometimes it can be hard to really understand how how they work together. And what exactly do you think, you know, in your experience is the role that youth play in both peace and security?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 2:35
I get asked that question a lot. And I feel something people really don't realize is that today, youth make up most of the population in many conflict affected states, we're looking at 50, between 50 and 70% of the population in these areas is under the age of 30. So if you want to have meaningful and actionable peace efforts, you need to involve this population. This also includes like structural violence and positive peace, these programs need to be done by youth. Because if not, you're going to have a generation that's going to be excluded.
Sophia Mirzayee 3:10
So sort of a follow up question I have that's a little bit more personal is what did you see your role as being in terms of involving other youth in this process of peacebuilding and security.
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 3:24
So, for me, especially coming from Brazil, I see a lack of inclusion of young people, especially because politics is seeing something that only experts should be doing only older people, which is why you see so many politicians and public figures that are usually in their 50s or 60s, young people tend to create policies and projects are more meaningful and longer lasting for the community, which gives more stability and provides more security, working with young people and engaging them, you are providing an opportunity. So everyone is included. And you have positive piece where you're looking at equity and equality. Without the young people at the table. We're forgetting about the intersectionalities and issues that are exclusive to young people. And you're erasing the experiences of these young people there are so unique to them.
Sophia Mirzayee 4:16
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And another follow up question I have is, you know, you brought up the fact that you are originally from Brazil, right, but just to provide our listeners with perhaps a better idea of what some of the common issues that young people in other other parts of the world tackle or face on a on a daily basis. What are some of those things that concern youth who live in Brazil, for example?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 4:43
Thank you so much for this question. I absolutely adore it in Brazil, and it is something that I tackle a lot because working with the Canadian coalition I'm looking at Canadian perspectives are very different from Brazil In Brazil when we're looking at youth pizza security. We're looking more at programs that target youth in a different manner. It's not the inclusion of them, but you see them more as threats to security, which is a huge issue. We're looking at an education that excludes them from politics entirely, it is seen as something completely out of their range. And they're just seen as individuals that are a threat to security and to peace. So they're treated as such, it creates a lack an exclusion of their experiences as humans and injured individuals.
Sophia Mirzayee 5:33
right? And why is it that young people are viewed as threats, like what is so threatening about us?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 5:43
It's been this stereotype that you fit very homogenous, I would say, and if we don't have a plan life, we're gonna fall to crime or gangs. And you also have the history of child soldiers, which is a huge issue. But it's also a very large stereotype. You know, it's not all children are in conflict zones, or choose that path, a lot of the times they do not have that choice, when you provide them with that choice. Research has shown that will not go down that path. So it is very sad that we are all seen as like, from 14 to 30, we're all the same individuals, we're all the same people. And that that is the reality. And that is what we're going to become, instead of seeing that we are so capable of change, like teenagers, we completely change the chemistry of our brains, how can you expect us to all follow the same path to all do the same thing? You know, we're a mat, unimaginable the amount of things we can do, and how passionate we are about so many different things. And only now we're being recognized for it as activists as peacebuilders as advocates, because before we're just children looking for trouble. We hear that a lot. That stereotype of teenagers is troublemakers. The United Nations Security Council resolution speaks on removing that image from young people of being threats, but instead being peacebuilders my dream come true would be like teenagers peace builders.
Sophia Mirzayee 7:13
Yeah, that would be a lot better and more accurate, I would say right, much more accurate. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really interesting that you brought up child soldiers, because I think that oftentimes young people who are in a environment that is peaceful, or there is no sense of security around them due to circumstances that only then are they really forced to kind of go down those paths, right? If there was peace and security around them, why on earth would somebody become a child soldier? Right? It doesn't make sense. So it's not really a reflection of them as an individual. It's more about, you know, societal issues that are going on. Right. So I like that you that you talked about that. And also, oftentimes, there's this kind of idea that, Oh, if you've been a child soldier, that there's no way to sort of reintegrate you, like you're kind of like, Lost Cause there's is that kind of sort of school of thought about child soldiers. And it's actually not true at all, like you can absolutely reintegrate, you know, former child soldiers, and they can be incredibly great assets to society. You know, despite despite that experience, right?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 8:30
No, definitely. And I find it really important to talk about that, because it is one of the pillars of the YPS agenda, which is disengagement and reintegration. Right? Their experiences are extremely valid for us to better understand and create better policies and understand the context better.
Sophia Mirzayee 8:47
Definitely. And thank you so much for that nugget. They're really enjoying the conversation so far. But I did want to switch gears because there's something else I'm also really curious to ask you about. I know that the Canadian Coalition for Youth peace and security recently conducted a survey that was focused around this idea of tokenization and de-tokenization. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? What was the rationale behind it? And perhaps you can tell us a bit about the preliminary findings of that survey?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 9:23
Yeah, of course, again, something that we part of the steering committee and members of the coalition really started talking after almost a year of our creation was we have a lot of positions and opportunities that aren't exactly meaningful. They're meant for youth, you see councils and advisory boards that are open to youth, but you end up seeing that their voices aren't really heard and their actions are recognized. And it was a way to show that they had youth inclusion or they were for the the YPS agenda, but in the end were being tokens, and that's where we started looking at tokenisation survey where we really wanted to understand where, why how Canadian youth were being tokenized.
Sophia Mirzayee 10:08
So what were some of the findings from the survey,
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 10:13
the preliminary findings that we found from the survey were mostly that young people's intersection that intersectionalities are respected or recognized, which was on the biggest issues, where young people would be chosen just for part of their identity. And part of it was not recognized or was not respected and taken into account. And youth participation and representation is decreased and made more difficult due to tokenization. Because they limit positions and opportunities for youth, because they just need one token, right. Another thing that we found was expertise is almost exclusively linked to education. A lot of the time they want young people to have masters or PhDs. And how do you have that at 24. But you are an expert. Expertise is not only a piece of paper with a diploma, there's a lot of other factors that you can learn a lot from. And the third one, which one I already talked about, but we found it was youth is seen as as a modernist group, which creates a lot of barriers for young people that deviate from that mold to get involved.
Sophia Mirzayee 11:22
And what kind of questions were asked to sort of gauge this concept of tokenization?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 11:30
The questions asked were first, we talked a lot about identity. I'm very interested in the Francophone aspect of Canada and the bilingualism, but it's also a question of what does that mean for your identity as a francophone? So we also added questions about the aspect of language. So the expertise in English language, different accents, different, different Francophone accents. And we also looked at funding, how do you feel funding is giving out to you young people, but we also asked where the young people feel, there is the most tokenization. And it was very interesting to see the results and see that it is a widespread issue. And it got us thinking, so how do we solve this? And why is it this happens? And our response really was the systems we have in place, or made for us. And they don't know how to add us to the mold. Because it's such a diverse and expandable group. They don't know how to do it. So that's what we wanted to do. It's like, how do we fix it? Well, let's guide them.
Sophia Mirzayee 12:40
Yeah, I just wanted to sort of emphasize that line that you just gave us. The systems that are created weren't made for us that is so important and key, because No wonder we're being tokenized. We're not the system, the programs, whatever, whatever it is, it's not made with us in mind or for us. Obviously, we're going to be tokenized as a result, right? And so how do you think we can better involve young people in meaningful ways rather than in tokenistic ways? What are those first steps?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 13:24
So this is what we're currently looking at. We are creating a toolkit that can be used for organizations and governments to have really the tools to support the meaningful and real inclusion of young people in policy development and decision making. And yeah, so the first step really is looking at the problem and try to understand it, understand why it's there. And the UN resolution from the Security Council on Youth Peace and Security is fairly recent 2015. Before that, as I said, youth were seen as rather threats than peacebuilders. So it's constantly changing. And we're trying to understand better how to include young people, which is why we decided to create a de tokenisation Toolkit, which we're working on currently, it is made for organizations and governments that want to involve young people and don't know how. So we want them to have the tools to support the meaningful and real inclusion of young people in policy development and decision making. And we will be guiding the creation of meaningful roles and positions for youth. This will include, for example, concrete examples, best practices that we found, going beyond simply naming the problem, but also offering specific solutions to challenge tokenism. We're looking at the responses from the survey, which we asked people weren't were cases of we call them no no cases where young people felt tokenized and are trying to come up with a solution on how that situation could have been reversed. So we will try to go on a case by case analysis and showcasing solutions for each of those to really challenge this aspect of organization and have young people in roles that are more meaningful and actionable.
Sophia Mirzayee 15:12
Yes, I like that the actionable piece is so important, I find because you know, it's all nice to ask us for our opinion and what we think. But then if you get our thoughts, and then you don't do anything about it, then what's the point? Right, we kind of feel like, Oh, that was useless. And you know, I feel tokenized.
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 15:33
Yeah, exactly. And like, I feel it's very important to understand and change the mindset, because young people are leaders, we are capable, we want to make sure diverse forces are at the table and not consulted after the ink has had time to dry, which is what happens a lot, right in the system is it already happened. And then they asked us our opinion, and you're like you've already done it, right? We want to be there when the decision is being made. We want a seat at the table and talk about issues like climate change is showing to be one of the biggest issues where they are trying to understand our role, because we're the ones being affected by it. It's something in politics that needs to change the mindset as well. All policies that are being made today will have real impact in 20 years, that's us, we're going to be paying the price for enjoying the fruits.
Sophia Mirzayee 16:25
Definitely. And yeah, climate change is a really, really good example. Because that's going to follow us for a really long time long before the people who are currently in power are gone, right, it'll still be an issue that we young people have to grapple with on a daily basis. Another sort of question I had is, I oftentimes, like notice that when there's opportunities given to youth to get involved in decision making processes, or to have a seat at the table, quote, unquote, often given to youth that have a certain background, like you mentioned, you know, youth to have experience, like perhaps a master's degree or like, a certain level of education or youth that have demonstrated volunteer work in a certain field, or who have done this, or who have done that, you know, and I think that in many ways can be quite problematic, because why not engage all youth, you know, regardless of what kind of lived experiences they have, or what's on their resume, right? Because yeah, all of a personally all, almost all of the, the opportunities that I see for you are kind of tailor for a certain kind of youth, right? And really, each one of us has something valuable to bring to the table, no matter who we are. And so what are your thoughts on that?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 17:53
So first one, talking about lived experiences, which is also something we touched on the survey, because a lot of times we will see lived experiences as one of the main forms of expertise for young people. However, at the same time, you would see a victimization of young people. And that can bring forth a lot of trauma and just affect people negatively, right, just because you have your lived experiences that doesn't make all of that's not all of you, you know, you're not valid just because of that you don't need to be victimized. You are an amazing human who is there to provide us with an experience that will help us understand what is going on, you're not there to be a victim to be paraded around. And that is the way the mold works. The stereotype works. It's like you can only be an activist, if you've been a victim, why can you be an activist? Because you're a human being because human rights is for humans? And then you exclude a lot of experiences because they won't be portrayed in the media in the same way, because you can monetize it. Why aren't we just portraying activist as young people who want a better place regardless. And another topic you touched on is young people need to be volunteers are part of organizations or have done something. And it's something that with the creation of the Canadian coalition of youth peace and security, we've tried to target. So being a member of our coalition provides me the opportunity of going to these things. We want to open the spaces that are excluding people that aren't affiliated to organizations, or NGOs, or whatever it is, we want to open them up and say everyone is welcome. No gatekeeping because each experience is unique. Each experience can give us insight on different things that we might have not thought of. Every day that I talked to a new activist, new person, I'm learning something new, and we all have bias. The more you talk to people The more you lose your bias, because you start to understand I am forgetting about this individual, I am forgetting about these 1000s of intersectionalities. This individual has, I'm only talking about three of them, they have five, they have six, they have hundreds. The more you talk to people, the more you learn. And the more the more you like, like Socrates says, the more you learn, the less you know.
Sophia Mirzayee 20:24
Yes, I love that quote from Socrates. He, he talks a lot about that, how he knows very little, which I think is very accurate. Absolutely. The more you talk to people, the last BIOS you have, that's another good little nugget that you've given me. Thank you Gabriela. I did want to sort of still circle back and talk about you, again, if you can share with our listeners, you know, what inspires you to be involved in this work? What is the thing that drives you? And tell us about how you got involved?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 20:59
So for me, I really started as a feminist that didn't do anything grand. In the beginning, I just thought, Why should women and men be different? I've always had this in my head, we are all human human rights. Like that just sounds right. And I was always very curious about the UN, in international politics and understanding how it works. And I got the opportunity to go to women deliver. And that really opened my eyes to how the issues I saw in Brazil are happening everywhere. And as an immigrant immigrating to Canada was really shocking. For the first time in my life, I remember walking alone at night and not being scared. And that for me, was really like just a switch. How can you be this unsafe and find that it's normal? How is it that I had to leave my home country to feel safe? That really didn't make sense to me. And that's really what pushes me to continue doing this work. Billions of people feel this way, every single day, every single minute. And why that is? The biggest thing for me is why should you? And why should you accept it? So I just started looking for opportunities, like what can I do? How do I start, and I found the Canadian Council for young feminists, which just opened, like, yeah, you can do this, we're young, but like, you just open the door, kick it down and go in. And that's what you have to do. You know, just and I started really small, like just talking to my family, just talking to your friends trying to really educate people. And I say educate because just showing your point of view, and just you have to show why. Why do you believe in that? Why do you need human rights, and it's something I've really tried to push forth in my social media with my friends, is educate the people around you, your community, because it might seem like it's so small, but it makes a huge difference.
Sophia Mirzayee 22:56
Definitely makes an incredibly big difference, right. And then even if that's the only thing you do is you just talk to the people in your inner circle, and you have open dialogues about these things. That is enough. Because it makes such a big difference, right. And hopefully, anyone who's listening is also inspired to, to get involved in some way. And it's wonderful to know that CC y PS is so open, and so anti gatekeeping and accessible to all youth. So is this something that some any youth can sort of become a member, no matter where they are in Canada?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 23:37
Yes, you just have to file a flick form. And you're welcome to participate. However you would like if you want to only want to be looking at the opportunities. If you want to work on our projects, even work with us on the DT organization toolkit. You're welcome to however you want to engage. We're more than happy to help you and have you with us.
Sophia Mirzayee 23:58
Absolutely. And we'll definitely include a link with more information in our episode description. Thank you Gabriela for having this discussion with me. We touched on a couple of different things like D tokenization, youth peace and security. We even talked about climate change and human rights, which is really the foundation under all of these topics, right? It was such a lovely discussion. Is there anything else that you want to say? Or leave our audience with?
Gabriela Caribé de Macedo Soares 24:33
Anything you do, no matter how small like sharing a post about what YPS mean? Like just the smallest little things matter and it doesn't matter where you start. It is the beginning and it is amazing. And we are so happy to have you with us.
Sophia Mirzayee 24:50
Such wonderful words to end this episode with thank you for being here and thank you all for listening. To learn more about una Canada you can visit our website and follow us on social media using the links provided in the episode description. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for more episodes in our SDG podcast series.