In this episode of the SDG Series of Between Two Flags, hosts Sophia and Grant listen and react to a discussion that Sophia had on sustainable security when she was a guest on the NATO Canada podcast with Eric Jackson.
NATO Association in Canada
NATÔ Canada Podcast
Show Link: https://open.spotify.com/show/3iSvLgoD9BPxWNWeWV1n1L?si=7Mw2h7elTgy5-ajI4KNhAw&dl_branch=1
Episode Link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2vcxAFdVPJdvDYkVvfkCiV?si=IVEUysbVTheF3MZxyj60hw&dl_branch=1
UNA-Canada
The Lazy Person’s Guide to Saving the World
https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/takeaction/
Sophia Mirzayee 0:05
You're listening to the SDG series of Between Two Flags, a bilingual podcast series for the United Nations Association in Canada. UNA-Canada's mandate is to educate and engage Canadians on the work of the UN, and international issues of importance to us all.
Grant Mask 0:21
On this podcast, guests discuss a wide range of issues related to the Sustainable Development Goals and the UN's work. The 17 SDGs are a global call for action, providing a shared blueprint for peace and prosperity for people and the planet. Tag us as you listen with #betweentwoflags.
Sophia Mirzayee 0:47
Hi, everyone, and welcome to our second episode in the SCG series of the Between Two Flags podcast. My name is Sophia...
Grant Mask 0:54
and my name is Grant. In our last episode in the SDG series, we had the pleasure of speaking with two very inspiring Generation SDG Ambassadors, who told us about some of the amazing community initiatives that they're leading in an effort to advance the Sustainable Development Goals. We have a very special episode for our listeners this time around. Recently, Sophia, I understand you had an opportunity to be a guest on another podcast called NATÔ Canada with Eric Jackson from the NATO association of Canada.
Sophia Mirzayee 1:23
Yes, I loved it. It was a fantastic conversation, and I'm super excited because we're actually going to play some of the NATÔ Canada podcast episode here today. And Grant and I will have a little bit of a discussion to build on some of the ideas that came up. And if you'd like to listen to the full episode from NATÔ Canada, we're going to include a link in our episode description for you to check out. And before we get started, I would just like to thank NATÔ Canada for their willingness to let us share this episode with all our listeners. All right, let's dive right in.
Eric Jackson 1:59
NATO was founded in 1949 with the primary purpose of countering the Soviet Union. Fast forward six decades and we find a very different world with very different security challenges. Concerns over state-on-state conflict have been replaced by the emerging threats of climate change, global inequality, water scarcity, and most recently, global pandemics. These global concerns do not stop at our borders. They have a way of impacting every facet of our daily lives. These global threats require global solutions. The United Nations offers a possible solution. established in 2015. The 17 Sustainable Development Goals offers a blueprint to achieve a better and more sustainable future. for all. These goals identify specific targets to measure our progress and keep countries on track to achieve them. The purpose of these goals is to address the many emerging concerns we as a society now face in our day to day lives. My name is Eric Jackson, I am a Program Editor at the NATO Association of Canada. Each episode, we'll explore how the Sustainable Development Goals relate and address security topics. The goal of this podcast is to highlight the need to incorporate sustainability in all our solutions. The world is changings, so too should our appraoch to emergant threats. Welcome to Sustainable Security.
Eric Jackson 3:20
I'm joined today by a special guest from the United Nations Association in Canada who will really speak to the origins of United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and really give an interesting perspective on the grassroots perspective on that. With that said, I will pass it over to our special guest to introduce herself.
Sophia Mirzayee 3:35
Hi, everyone. My name is Sophia Mirzayee. And, as Eric mentioned, I work for the United Nations Association in Canada, also known as UNAC or UNA-Canada. So, I will most likely be using that short form because it's a little bit of a mouthful. I work specifically on their Generation SDG program. So this is a program that helps youth between the ages of 15 and 25 create and implement community projects that address one or more of the SDGs.
Eric Jackson 4:10
Thank you so much, Sophia. No, we're really excited to have you on the podcast and to certainly talk to specifically, a person from an Association with United Nations just because it is such an important aspect of our global society. I was wondering if I could just kind of start with an overview of what the Sustainable Development Goals, or as we call it, the SDGs, are from a historical context? Like, what are the SDGs? And how do we even get to them? How did society created them in the first place?
Sophia Mirzayee 4:38
So, just to kind of give a little bit of an overview, the SDGs were preceded by what were known as the Millennium Development Goals. So, those who have been in the international development sector for a long time, probably remember the Millennium Development Goals really well. They're also, you know, the acronym for them is the MDGs. And they were essentially a set of eight goals that were adopted, I believe it was in 2000, but don't quote me on that. I'm not 100% sure, but it was in the early 2000s. And the aim of these eight goals was to eradicate extreme poverty. So, some of the more specific goals were, for example, eradicating hunger, securing universal primary education, reducing child mortality, tackling diseases like HIV AIDS, and a couple of other ones that I don't remember off the top of my head. But essentially, as the MDG era was coming to an end, the UN decided to pass another resolution that would accelerate the progress that they had already made on the MDGs, but also kind of broaden the scope of the goals and add additional goals. So they expanded it to 17 goals now, and they're known as the Sustainable Development Goals, the SDGs. And essentially, the SDGs are a collection of 17 goals that are interrelated, it's always important to emphasize that they are interrelated. And the ultimate aim of the SDGs is to secure a sustainable future for us all. And they help us ensure peace, prosperity for people and the planet through partnerships.
Eric Jackson 6:36
That's brilliant. I mean, it's fascinating to me how we had this sort of transition from these eight MDGs over to the 17 SDGs. And, and on the surface, it seems like there's a lot of really, sort of, overarching ideas and these interconnected ideas of sustainable development and progressive development. And you, at the United Nations Association have like really done a lot of work to sort of encourage youth to try to achieve and pursue these goals. in your opnion, what is the best way that we as a society can actually achieve and address the Sustainable Development Goals, both domestically and internationally?
Sophia Mirzayee 7:11
So, I think that first and foremost, we really need to use a multi-faceted approach when we're thinking about addressing the SDGs. I would say that it's important to use both a top-down and a bottom-up approach in tandem. So, by bottom-up, I mean, really building the capacity of grassroots organizations and movements, and essentially those who are already on the ground, already doing the work and they've been doing it for decades, even before the SDGs were a thing. So, supporting them entails providing you know, adequate resources, funding and really investing in grassroots movements and organizations because they already have a ton of insight as to what the gaps are in their regions and their communities. But, the issue is that they don't always have the necessary resources to effectively address the issue. So, it's important to make large investments in that area. So that's one sort of key element. But then also, I would say it's important that our institutions support the SDG agenda and on top of supportive rhetoric, it's imperative that we have actual policies and practices on a political, economic, environmental, and social scale that very strongly align with the work that organizations on the ground are doing, in order to achieve the SDGs. It's incredibly difficult to make any real advancements that are long term and sustainable when there isn't that institutional support, like, that is really key, and when there aren't actual governing policies that can sustain those efforts to address social problems. And what I love is that there's so many different kinds of individual little things that you can do in your daily life, that actually do make a difference. And it's important that people prioritize social problems, but not just value an understanding of social problems, but also value the process of creating solutions to them. That's very key. And I think, in particular, young people really should be put at the forefront of all of this. Because, you know, we might create incredible, amazing sustainable projects, or, you know, set up effective systems for achieving the SDGs, but it's really going to be young people who are going to carry these things forward into the future. So, it's important that we get them involved as soon as possible in the SDGs. When you're addressing the SDGs, you really need to think about what are the symptoms of the social problems and what are the root causes. Because you don't want to only focus on the sort of surface level symptoms that we're seeing because when you focus exclusively on those elements, you're really just putting a band-aid on something, and there's no actual real sustainable, transformative change that's occurring. And so, I always, you know, I'm a huge advocate for really getting down, doing a deep dive and understanding what the underlying causes of said social problem is, and really tackling those, on top of taking care of the symptoms as well, right? So, you can't you need to have both, you need to have an approach that targets the root causes, but then also helps treat the symptoms. And that is all you're going to say about that question for now.
Eric Jackson 9:02
Well, I guess this follow up question actually might actually tie into exactly what you said about sort of diving deeper into sort of the social issues and the underlying sort of causes and effects of really what happens to us on a daily basis. So diving deeper, as you said, what exactly are the underlying concerns and security issues that the Sustainable Development Goals are trying to address? As you said, there's like 17 of them. What are the specific concerns that the SDGs are trying to address?
Sophia Mirzayee 8:50
Like I mentioned earlier, there were 17 of them, and each of them focus on one issue. And then, each goal also has sub-goals attached to them. So, there could be you know, so there's Goal 1, I believe goal 1 is no property. And then there's Goal 1.1, 1.2, etc. So, it really gets specific, which is nice, because that serves as a measurement model. Goal 3 is ood health and wellbeing. Goal 6 focuses on clean water and sanitation. Goal 8, focuses on decent work, Goal 13 is climate action, Goal 16 is peace, justice, and strong institutions. And 17, I believe, is partnerships. So, there's a wide range of goals. And I think it's important to understand, again, that they're all interrelated, as I mentioned earlier, and that there really is no use in addressing any of these goals in a vaccum, right? So, you mentioned security, you know, but in order to have security, you also need to address poverty.
Eric Jackson 12:54
Yeah, it's all it's all interrelated.
Sophia Mirzayee 12:56
It's all interrelated. You cannot say that you have security unless you've tackled poverty, unless you've tackled health, unless you've tackled like providing decent work for people. So they're all interrelated. And I think that at core of them, there's like, just sort of this mandate of, you know, prioritizing the human condition and thinking about, you know, human dignity. And having that be, you know, there's there's very much like a values-based foundation that the goals sit on top of that prioritizes human dignity and human respect and security and, like, a rights based approach, because these, all of these things are inalienable human rights. So, when you look at it that way, it really helps to kind of contextualize the goals.
Eric Jackson 14:02
I certainly want to highlight for the current world as it is right now, the pandemic we're going on. And that sort of showcases and highlights that there are different other security concerns such as health, security, social security, economic security, and climate security. And it's just that everything is interrelated. And it's really important not to think of these issues in silos, because that's when we really get in trouble. And that's when really we can't find key solutions to these really complex and interesting problems.
Sophia Mirzayee 14:34
Absolutely, yeah. When you're thinking about, you know, addressing one goal, you have to also think about all of the other goals at the same time, because they all inform each other.
Eric Jackson 14:44
So moving on to sort of the final question I have for you today is, is sort of circling back to sort of who I am and the Association I'm wit, and that is NATO, NATO as like an overarching organization and security organization in the world. And in recent decades, we've seen certainly NATO take on a broader mandate to sort of address political and environmental issues. And recently, the Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg, made it a priority that NATO will address climate change and climate change will be at the forefront of all decision-making. So, I want to ask you, is it what role do these organizations like NATO, or any sort of regional security organizations have in achieving Sustainable Development Goals considering that all its members like Canada, United States, France, Germany, England, they are very major players in the international system. What role do these organizations have in achieving the SDGs?
Sophia Mirzayee 15:41
Right, so I mean, first of all, I'd like to say that I'm so thrilled to hear that NATO is kind of undertaking you know, environmentmental issues, for example you mentioned, and that there is that sort of like understanding that security is more than just security in a traditional sens, that there's a lot that needs to happen in order for people to feel safe and secure, and to actually be safe and secure in practice. So, that's fantastic. I think, and again, I'm not an expert, I don't have very robust knowledge on NATO and its work. But what I what I can say is that, I think perhaps that NATO's main role lies in international cooperation around the SDGs. Another sort of common term that is used to refer to the SDGs is the global goals. So, that really kind of highlights the fact that this is really a global effort. And although each country has its own targets, and that needs to be reached, it's not enough for us to say, Oh, hey, you know, in Canada, we reach this goal and that goal, and we're doing so well, domestically, or, you know, Europe is doing so well, like in terms of a continent. That's not nearly enough, like we really need to think on a global level level and consider ways that we can cooperate with other nation states in order to achieve the goals because ultimately, the goals don't have borders, right? So, and then the other thing I think that I'm thinking about right now is, you know, organizations like NATO, should keep in mind that there is no one size fits all model for sustainable solutions. So there's, you know, something that works in one community in one region might not work in another community or region, the SDGs really do manifest differently on a micro and a macro level. And so, it's important to understand and know what those differences are, and what approaches are best suited for each context. So while it is, you know, a global effort to achieve the SDGs, I think it's also important to take into consideration like the regional context, because we want our solutions to be tailored to those contexts so that they can actually be effective. And kind of using that one size fits all model just doesn't work. And so, I guess, in sum, so NATO's role could be very much focused on the international cooperation sphere, because without that, without partnerships, the goals, you know, can only go so far, like we can only do so much without that cooperation piece. And then also, I think that it's important for institutions to kind of adopt a very rights-based framework to their work and kind of make sustainability, a guiding principle that they use, that informs all of the practices, and all of the work, all of the policies that they have. So if NATO, you know, has that sort of kind of approach, then other organizations that are like-minded, other institutions, for instance, can look at NATO and say, Hey, like, this is, what they're doing. This is how it's working for them. And this is how it's actually contributing to even more security in a more robust way. And they can sort of adopt similar models.
Eric Jackson 19:30
Absolutely. I think NATO like from my personal perspective, I think NATO is like is situated in a perfect position to be in a global leader in this sense, because the United Nations is a fantastic sort of global organization, but sometimes unfortunately, get two sort of conflicting ideas about like how to go forward, but having like a smaller sort of regionally centered focus could be a really good leadership role for the world. And NATO is in a perfect spot to play that part because of the countries that make up the organization and just like the sheer power that comes from having a very large population, a very sort of large economic perspective in the world to really push forward and really address these goals that will make our society better in the future, both from security perspective, and a general sort of human moral perspective.
Grant Mask 20:31
Sophia, I thought it was really interesting how you spoke about the history of the Sustainable Development Goals, and how they evolved from the Millennium Development Goals. I think it's important for our listeners to also have an understanding of where the SDGs come from, that these goals were developed from the MDGs and that they have been refined and updated to reflect the current state of the world. While the SDGs have always been relevant, it is especially relevant today that we have an agreed upon set of universal goals to meet the environmental, health, political economic challenges facing our world. Currently, we face challenges like COVID-19 and climate change, for example, and these issues cannot be faced alone. To address the SDGs, we require cooperation. The meaning of both sustainability and security has evolved somewhat in the modern context. Today, we face issues like climate change, the COVID- 19 pandemic, and many global inequalities. And these issues are being exacerbated today. In the context of COVID-19, it has become obvious that no one is safe until everyone is safe, and has been vaccinated. So if you consider the virus and the variants which have emerged, for example, it's important for us to recognize and respond to the current inequalities when it comes to which countries have vaccines and which countries don't, and who is being vaccinated. This issue extends well beyond any one country's borders, we are facing this challenge together. And so we need to work together.
Sophia Mirzayee 21:58
Absolutely, I definitely agree, we are all in this together, and the only way we're gonna get through it is together. So, I was watching this docu series yesterday. And I think it was about the evolution of transportation. And it was talking about how way back in the 1800s, if you wanted to get from India to the UK, you would have to get on a boat for six months. And fast forward to 2021, and you can go on a plane and you're there the next day. And that just blows my mind that we are so geographically connected more than ever before. And it doesn't just stop with transportation, the internet is another really good example of just the incredible degree of interconnection that has espoused from platforms like social media. And I think that this leads into this idea that today we find ourselves at the very height of human interconnection. Never before in history, have we been as connected to each other as we are right now. And it is precisely at this moment, that challenges, like climate change, as you mentioned, and COVID-19 have arisen that require more than anything else, a high degree of international cooperation. And personally, I don't think that that's a coincidence. I think that this moment, which you know, one day is going to be history is full of opportunities to cement ourselves as global citizens, as citizens of a world rather than just citizens of nation states. And I really do hope that coming together to tackle issues like COVID, and climate change and food insecurity and the inequalities that you mentioned, that it helps us move away from the more traditional approaches where nation states operate more or less autonomously, and instead, deepen our interconnectivity and perhaps establish a foundation or a framework of international cooperation that can help us continue to address global issues effectively. And so, international cooperation is absolutely key. And like you said, we really are in this together.
Grant Mask 24:44
I agree 100%, I saw the potential for having a framework for international cooperation. earlier this month, I was fortunate to have an opportunity to participate in a virtual delegation to the 2021 High Level Political Forum on Sustainable Development, which was hosted in New York. So, I was just attending it virtually, it was my first time attending a forum like this. So, I learned that the High Level Political Forum is the main United Nations platform on sustainable development and it has a central role in the follow-up and review of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development and the Sustainable Development Goals at the global level. So this year, the 2021 High Level Political Forum focused on sustainable and resilient recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic. During the forum, I had the opportunity to listen to many voluntary national reviews from member states. High Level Political Forum and voluntary national reviews are some examples of ways that we can create a framework and measure our progress on the SDGs. It's a forum for us to discuss current challenges as well as progress And ultimately how we can better work together toward achieving the SDGs. The HLPF. And voluntary national reviews are also a way to hold member states accountable to some degree because it's a forum where we can all get together and discuss challenges progress, as well as how we can continue to work together.
Sophia Mirzayee 26:12
That's really interesting, I'm very happy to hear that the forum provided an opportunity to better understand the challenges that are associated with advancing the SDGs. I think it's important to shine a light on what the different factors are, that are holding us back from really being able to attain some of these measures. So that's great that that provides an opportunity to discuss, to perhaps share with each other what has worked, what hasn't worked, so that we can actually understand how to move forward together more effectively. You know, you can't really do anything to solve an issue if you don't know how to address the things that are holding you back from being able to attain those goals. So that's really wonderful, kind of almost like a knowledge exchange, it sounds like, so I'm glad that you were able to take part in that and kind of, in some ways, be a fly on the wall and listen to what's been going on and what's been done and what, what we need to do to continue the progress. But also, I was wondering, how did you get involved with this form? I've actually never heard of it until now. So, I'd like to know, you know, how you found out about it, and what compelled you to get involved?
Grant Mask 27:37
I'm really glad you asked. I would love for our listeners to know so that they may also consider getting involved in these opportunities in the future as well. These events actually were streamed online, so anyone with an internet connection can actually take part in these sessions and listen to voluntary national reviews. So, I participated in the event as a delegate in the United Nations Association in Canada's Canada Service Corps. program. UNA-Canada Service Corps. provides inaugural opportunities for young Canadians to meaningfully participate in UN events. The program aims to help delegates gain valuable skills and experience to deepen their understanding of diplomacy, and to encourage global citizenship. So, in order to be eligible to participate in this program, you first have to complete a minimum of 120 service hours volunteering with the Canada Service Corps. national program. So for me, I've participated in Canadian Conservation Corps program and had a really amazing experience. So the Canadian Conservation Corps as an example, is a three stage program which encompasses a wilderness expedition, a three month field learning experience with a partner organization. So for example, I volunteered for three months with Alberta Parks. And lastly, you complete a final outreach and service project. So, the objective of the CCC program is to provide opportunities for youth ages 18 to 30 to learn, grow, and experience Canada in a unique way, all while having a meaningful impact on conservation. So this is just one example of the Canada Service Corps. national programs. There are also regional programs like the Generation SDG program, which we spoke about during our last episode. For any young people who are listening between the ages of 15 to 30, who are interested in getting more involved in their communities and making a difference toward the SDGs, the CSC program offers a wide range of different programs, including the Canadian Conservation Corps. which is run by the Canadian Wildlife Federation. There's also Wild Outside, which is a program for a younger age group, the Generation SDG program, Katimavik, 4H Canada, Apathy is Boring, Duke of Ed, Oceanwise, and the list goes on. The one thing that's really amazing about these Canada Service Corps. program opportunities, is that they are funded opportunities, and they aim to be barrier free. For any young people who are interested, I would definitely recommend looking into Canada Service Corps volunteer opportunities, as they relate to a wide range of different SDGs.
Sophia Mirzayee 30:08
You know, it's really cool to hear you talk about your experience with the Canada Service Corps programming, especially the CCC program. It's always really nice and enriching for me to actually hear the experience of a participant. So, thank you so much for sharing more details about that. I hope that any young people who are listening can learn from your experience and hopefully get involved in a similar way. But it also got me thinking about, you know, all the different ways there are to get involved like there's so many programs out there, like you mentioned, Katimavik, Generation SDG, CCC like there's so much out there. And I think it's wonderful that we live in a day and age where there's so many different opportunities out there for young people. And something that I love about the SDGs is that there's a multitude of ways that you can engage with the SDGs and advance them. And it's up to you to choose how you want to engage with them. You know, I was thinking about those people who might not want to commit 120 hours of volunteer work, you know, or who might not feel like they have the time or the energy. And I actually came across this really cool document that the UN published, it's called the Lazy Person's Guide to Saving the World, which I think is a really funny name, it's incredibly witty as well. And it's super cool, because it gives you a giant list of different actions you can take at different levels. So for example, level one is things that you can do from your couch, which I mean, I'm really into that idea, because I spend a lot of time on couches. And sometimes I wonder what I should do when I'm on the couch. So knowing that there's an actual list of actions you can take for the SDGs from your couch is pretty cool. So some of the examples that they've listed are things like turning off the lights when you're not using them, changing your bank statements from paper to online bills, unplugging appliances, following NGOs online to hear about what they're doing, things like that, you know, little actions you can take from your couch. And then level two includes things that you can do at home. So things that you can do without leaving your house, and then it levels up to things you can do outside your house, and so on and so forth. And I just love that, you know, you don't need to do much to get involved, right, like it's not rocket science. There are tons of macro level actions that are being taken by institutions and governments. And those are all incredibly important. But equally important, I would say, are these more micro level actions from individual people, or groups of people on the ground, because whether you know it or not, the SDGs are connected to your day to day lives. And so you can have, you can make a profound impact simply by taking little actions in your day to day life to advance the SDGs. And when all of these actions are added together, that's a lot of change that's happening, so I think it's incredibly important to have the sort of micro level approaches so that the macro and micro are working together. And it's wonderful to know that there are all these programs that are being offered, and that there are also very, very simple ways of getting involved and taking action.
Grant Mask 34:01
I absolutely agree, Sophia, and I think it's really important to look at it the way that you're looking at it. There are so many ways you can make a difference. And so I really appreciate you sharing that with our listeners today. So we don't have too much more time. But I wanted to ask you Sophia, do you have any other thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners today?
Sophia Mirzayee 34:21
I think after participating in the discussion with NATO Canada, as well, as you know, sort of diving a little bit more deeply into some of those concepts with you, and just in general, sort of expanding my understanding of the SDGs. I think that I've learned that we've really come a long way since the MDGs. You know, a lot of progress has been made. And I think a really good testament of that is kind of what you brought up in terms of all of the youth programs that are being offered with a social justice focus. You know, I think that that's a reflection of at least Canada's commitment to working towards and addressing the SDGs. So that's just really nice for me to see, you know, to know that know that the SDGs are being taken seriously, that we've learned from the MDG era, and that we are continuing to refine and adjust our approaches as new issues come up. And it's nice because I know on the one hand there's so much more work left to do. 2030 is fast approaching and we have a lot that still needs to be done in order for us to meet our targets but simultaneously it does feel quite nice to look back and see that there is a lot of progress that's been made and to be able to know that there are many opportunities to continue that progress.
Grant Mask 35:57
Absolutely. I agree that we are making progress, even if progress is gradual, and we must constantly reflect and re-evaluate on our efforts and make improvements over time so that we can accelerate our progress with the SDGs and the 2030 agenda. The COVID-19 pandemic is a really good example of this need to re-evaluate and change gears. It was discussed a lot during the HR global progress towards achieving the SDGs being challenged in many ways as a result of the pandemic. An obvious example that I'll give is SDG #3 which relates to good health and wellbeing. Target 3.8 of SDG #3 measures achieving universal health coverage, access to quality, essential health care services, and access to safe, effective quality and affordable essential medicines and vaccines for all. So, as we all know, there are many challenges still ahead of us, we need to continue to work together and pool our resources like vaccines, and share our best ideas with one another to continue to make progress with the SDGs. As we discussed in our last episode in the series, as a result of the pandemic, we also have a unique opportunity ahead of us to capitalize on our interconnectedness that you mentioned, Sophia. We must continue to work together, and we must leave no one behind. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in today. Again, if you'd like to listen to the full episode from NATÔ Canada, we've included a link in our episode description for you to check out. Sophia and I would like to thank the NATO Association of Canada again for letting us share this episode with our listeners. To learn more about the United Nations Association in Canada and its work, you can visit our website and follow us on social media using the links provided in the episode description. Thank you for listening. Please stay tuned for more episodes in our SDG podcast series.